The Dungeon - Sultan of Submission v5.0

About Bret

Owen Hart

Owen Memorial

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The Dungeon - Sultan of Submission

Bret Hart. 'The Hitman'. Fairly famous bloke. Used to work for the WWF.Was rather successful too. Captured most of the titles, the big one fivetimes. Left the group under circumstances which could be described as "acrimonious." Now works for WCW. Was a good guy. But it didn't last. "There's no sense fighting it," he tells Fin Martin. "Wrestling fans,In the United States anyway, don't seem to believe in heroes any more. .." It was a great start: perhaps the best anyone could have hoped for. Following a number of utterly stellar confrontations over themicrophone, Bret Hart and Ric Flair collided at WCW/NWO Souled Out on January 24thin Dayton, OH. It was 'The Hitman's' first televised match in the organisation. And what a dam fine bout it was. Furthermore, thedecision went Hart's way and the fans appreciated his efforts. Missionaccomplished. Bret Hart was on his way ... to the very top of WCW. Two months later, however, that momentum had evaporated. 'The Hitman' was treading water.His lifeless series with Curt Hennig scarcely helped - but there was moreto it than that. What went down a storm in Dayton was being met withindifference in other parts of the United States. In short, the babyface approachwasn't working.This called for action. And, on Monday Nitro on April 20th, action was taken. Hart, completely out of the blue, turned heel: he interfered inthe main event of the programme. As a result, Randy Savage bit the dust and Hulk Hogan left the ring with the World tide.

Since then, 'The Hitman' has gone up in the world: he's forged a solid alliance with Hogan and become embroiled in a bitter dispute withSavage. Their meeting at Slamboree fresh in mind, I posed the first question...

FM: Were you happy with your bout with Randy Savage?

BH: Yeah. Pretty much.

FM: Still, although you got the result, It was hardly the cleanestvictory of your career.

BH: Yeah ... But there's no sense fighting it: wrestling fans, in the United States anyway, don't seem to believe in heroes any more.There'sno rule book any more. Whoever breaks the rules best wins.

FM: Maybe so, but did you REALLY have to spit In Savage's face after the match?

BH: Well, that was my way of ... I guess by doing that that makes me bad.

My message was kinda like, you wanted me to be bad - here it is. Youknow (when I joined WCW), I tried to be a hero, someone the fans could lookup to. But apparently that wasn't what anybody wanted.I've said this many times: wrestling fans dictate policy in wrestling. They, ultimately,decide my fate They were not going to accept me as a good guy. And, as much asI tried, it just seemed to be an uphill battle.It was a heck of a loteasier for me to be the scoundrel that everyone was craving. So I would rathergo that route myself, if that's what makes everyone happy. That's whatI've done.

FM: When you arrived In WCW, you were Issuing challenges left, right and centre to Hulk Hogan. Why did you join forces with him and help him win the World title?

BH: Funny you should ask (long pause). I helped Hogan win the World title to ... erm, get more of the spotlight on me. You know, I didn't wanna keep going the way I was going. I was fighting (Ric) Flair and (Curt) Hennigand these kind of guys. That was okay, but I didn't think that was the wayfor me to go. I would much rather clear out some of the other guys, like (Kevin) Nash and (Randy) Savage.I don't know where things will go with Hogan and I. I don't know if its a partnership that will last forever.But, for the time being, it's better to work with him than against him.

FM: Turning the clock back, do you believe that you were destined, from birth, to become a professional wrestler?

BH: Everybody else will probably tell you that, but I never imaginedthat it would happen. You know, I looked at my father, and I didn't want his life. I wanted to be at home with my family - that kind of thing.Looking back, I guess I was destined for the world of wrestling. But I justdidn't realise it.

FM: What did you aspire to be when you were, say, 14 years of age?

BH: I wanted to be a movie director. At that time, I had no plans to bea wrestler.

FM: You wrestled for your father's Stampede promotion for a number of years.

BH: From what I hear, It was a hell of a tough territory. Oh, yeah itwas. I worked it for six years ... You know I worked England as well aroundthis time? it would have been, maybe, '81. I tagged up with big Shirley (the late Big Daddy), and wrestled most of the British guys, like MartyJones, (Mark 'Rollerball') Rocco ... all those guys. But, yeah, Stampede washard. I swore after that, that if my WWF career had stalled, I would have probably quit wrestling rather than go back to the grind of thatschedule. It was tough.

FM: Meanwhile, you frequently visited the Orient, along with Davey Boy Smith and The Dynamite Kid, where you competed for New Japan ProWrestling. You faced the original Tiger Mask, Satoru Sayama, on several occasions.He wasn't bad back then, was he?

BH: No, he wasn't ... He'd been in England too, right?

FM: Sure, as Sammy Lee - one of Bruce's 'relatives'.

BH: Yeah, I always had a lot of respect for him. He was unique. But Ifelt very privileged at that time to be lumped in with a bunch of guys whowere ... one of a kind. Sayama was probably one of the most creative and athletic guys that ever wrestled. I think Dynamite set a standard thatwas unparalleled ... And, in my own way, I think I was the best young,American style wrestler at that time. I wrestled against Dynamite, I wrestled against Tiger Mask, and I wrestled against Davey, for that matter. Ireally feel that I learned the best wrestling from the best wrestlers. Andwhen I look at the young guys today, I don't think there's anybody who is asgood as we were back then. You know, if Tiger Mask - as he was then - camealong today, he'd be better than anybody. There's nobody that compared withhim, and I don't think anyone would argue with that. And Dynamite - he wasjust unbelievable. There's people that talk about Chris Benoit and how good he is. And he is very, very, very good. But he's not The Dynamite Kid.

FM: In August 1984, your father sold Stampede to Vince McMahon - and,in a sense, you along with It. At the time, did you feel It was a step inthe right direction?

BH: I had mixed feelings about it. It was, like, before I was the top guy in a little promotion. Then I became the bottom guy in a big promotion.But, in the WWF, I made a lot more money, although the schedule wasn't any easier. Instead of driving 500 miles a day in a van with a bunch of wrestlers, going from town to town, I was flying thousands of miles aday, wrestling in one city after another, sometimes 60 days in a row.

FM: Would you mind telling us how much money you earned In your first year with the WWF?

BH: I don't like to talk about how much money I made. But I at least tripled my earnings.

FM: In the WWF, you became a full-time tag team wrestler, whereas in Stampede - at least from 1980 onwards - you were either pursuing or wearing the North American title. Was tag teaming the way YOU wanted to go?

BH: No, it wasn't. But, when I first got down there, it was a struggleto get any kind of spotlight.For example, from that first year, I don't think you'll find any pictures or footage of me. I was always advertised as"Plus one other match." My name wasn't even on the programme.So, I was therefor about nine months, lost in the shuffle, and then the tag team thingcame up. Then I saw an opportunity: I knew The (British) Bulldogs werecoming in, and I knew that if it was The Hart Foundation vs. The Bulldogs wecould steal the spotlight, grab the public's attention.

FM: You were right: The Harts and The Bulldogs had some phenomenal matches.

BH: The saddest part of it was, and I always tell people this, is that we had so many great matches on the road, most of which were nevertelevised. Some made it to television, but the really, really great ones werenever captured on camera.I remember one time we wrestled in Chicago. We werethe second match and we just completely blew the house down.

FM: Do you believe that, given the opportunity, you could have excelledas a singles wrestler in the WWF of the late 1980s?

BH: I don't really know. I mean, I was a technically sound wrestler.But at that point, I wasn't a very good ... salesman. I really didn't know howto talk, how to express myself. I wasn't very colourful. Perhaps I didn'thave the confidence. Technically, I was definitely good enough. But mentallyand emotionally, I think I was still a little naive.

FM: You were a little on the small side too: In the late 1980s, the WWF employed an awful lot of monsters.

BH: When I think about it, you're probably right, there was a lot of monsters around back then. But I was bigger then. I was about 18 pounds heavier then than I am now. Because there was so many big guys around,it was important to be as huge as possible. So I was always trying to keepmy weight up - you know, by stuffing my face.Years later, I changed. Idropped weight, cut up. It allowed me to move a lot faster and, in many ways, wrestle a lot better.But wrestling changed too, especially around 1991when (the WWF) began getting strict on drug testing. A lot of these hugeguys, who were basically steroid freaks, dropped off, which allowed me toshow what I had. Which was wrestling.

FM: Wrestling was definitely the name of the game in your match with'Mr. Perfect' Curt Hennig at SummerSlam '91.

BH: Yeah, that was a highlight for me.There are these funny little things that mean so much. You know, Curt Hennig, when he entered that match,had a really bad back. He could have just no-showed, like some people do nowadays. Shawn Michaels, for instance. But he showed up, gave 100 percent, had a great match and lost the Intercontinental title. Looking back on it, I remember that more than the quality of the match or anything else, hewas injured, he showed up, and he lost. A lot of guys wouldn't have donethat.

FM: Presumably, October 12th, 1992 was a highlight as well. It musthave been quite a rush to defeat a grappler of Ric Flair's standing for the World title, especially In Saskatoon, SK, just a few hundred miles from your hometown.

BH: It's funny, the first match I ever had was in Saskatoon. And to come back - and I don't remember exactly how many years later it was - and have a World title match and then get the title ... When I won the title, I think I was more shocked than anyone else. Its like you wish you couldbe World champion and you always think you're good enough. But when it happens, it's like, "Okay, now you're champion of the world" . . . I didn't believe I was champion. I wasn't confident at that point. I wasconcerned about how long I would last. I wanted to keep the belt for a while so I wouldn't look bad (laughs). And it wasn't until I lost at WrestleMania(IX) - you know, Yokozuna, Fuji, Hogan, all that stuff - that I realised I was better than them. But I think losing the title at that time was an important thing to have happen to me, it actually made me stronger, itmade me work harder. If you look at King of the Ring, a few months later, Ihad three matches. I faced Razor Ramon, Hennig again and Bam Bam Bigelow,who are three very different wrestlers. if you look at them, all three ofthose matches are completely different, all three of those matches are very physical and very punishing matches. I look at that night as atestimony to where I stood in the wrestling world. At that time, I knew I was good enough to be champion.

FM: In all, you held the WWF World title five times. Which reign brought you the most pleasure?

BH: I don't know ... I think the best one I had might have been the last one. Yeah, maybe the last one because I tied the record with Hogan, and because I had those great matches with The Undertaker. Anyone who has any doubts about my ability just has to watch the match where I won the title (at SummerSlam '97). I was as good in winning that match as I've ever been. I think the English expression is "spot on." I was spot on in the matchat (One Night Only) as well. I think the WWF would like to portray me as aguy who was unable to carry the weight of being champion. I think I proved that' s a whole bunch of crap.

FM: When did the problems with Shawn Michaels begin?

BH: I imagine it started a couple of months before we wrestled at WrestleMania XII. But they were always professional enough - you know, professional problems. I believe the things I said about Shawn Michaels were true. I didn't say anything that was ... damaging about the guy. I mean, I can't help it if the man poses for Playgirl magazine or if I have a problem with that. I think when I brought that up, it bothered him. And then it just kinda got to be tit for tat. Several times -before Shawn and I had our big blow-off - I tried very hard to come to terms with him and draw a line and make peace. And several times we shook on it: I said that I wouldn't cross the line as far as talking about 'this' and 'this' and 'this', and said that I would appreciate it if he wouldn't talk about my family - my father, that kind of stuff.We'd come to terms on that andt hen, two weeks later, I'd be watching TV and he'd just cross right over theline. FM: So, in your experience, he wasn't the most trustworthy member ofthe locker room?

BH: No. I never felt that he was very honourable or had any integrity at all. I thought he was a lying piece of s--t, to be quite honest. Ithink Michaels is a guy who set out years ago to dismantle or dislodge me from my position of being, like, the star of the company. And it became an obsession for him. It was never an obsession for me to be the star ofthe company: as long as Bret Hart can be Bret Hart, he'll be fine ... And I think McMahon had a lot to do with it. I think he had to decide who washis star: Michaels or me. Because (Michaels) is younger, I think Vince was sweet on him.

FM: Have you seen much of the WWF's programming since you left the group?

BH: I really don't watch it any more, although I did see the Saturday show here (on May 16th). I thought it was pretty bad. I thought it was a step backwards. You know, people always ask me if I miss the WWF. And I'llbe honest with you. I do miss the WWF. But I don't miss the way it is now.I miss the way it used to be. I always loved the international tourswhich WCW, at least at this point in time, has no real plans for. I miss the bigger ring, and the real ropes - the WWF has real ropes, whereas WCWhas steel cables. But if you ask me if I miss being on the bill...I really don't think that Bret Hart would fit into that show. When I see Hunter Hearst Helmsley pointing at his crotch and telling the fans to "suckit" and stuff like that. I don't allow my kids to watch (Raw Is War) and I haven't done since before Brian Pillman died ... When (he) was s-gging Marlena in the back room and the springs were going up and down. I thought that was in really bad taste. And the last few weeks that I was there,they were definitely pushing me in a direction which made me out to be a racist with that black and white issue with (the Nation of Domination). Irefused to do that and they started to do it anyway. I have a problem with that, a lot of people take wrestling very seriously and I don't want to be misconstrued or painted as a racist in any way, shape or form. It's one thing to bash Americans, which I had a little fun with. But I don't hate Americans, I never have, and I went along with that story line to kick start my bad guy image. But I think the rest of the world got into it -the Canadians, English people and everyone else kinda accepted that Americans do have a bit of an attitude. So I could deal with that. But being a racist? I had a problem with that. it bothered me, and I told them that. Then we did a Raw taping, and I was out there talking and all of asudden the screen came on and Shawn Michaels was there. I knew Shawn was going to appear on the screen, but I had no idea that he was going to say that I trashed (the Nation's) dressing room and sprayed "Nigger" on the wall,or whatever it was. It was then that I realised the WWF was going to do the story line about me being a racist against my own will. To me, what should always sell in wrestling is wrestling. And I don't believe the WWFsells wrestling any more. I think they sell Jerry Springer. It's turned into Jerry Springer, strictly for ratings. I feel a sense of shame and humiliation for all the wrestlers that really believe in wrestling asan art form when I watch what happened to the WWF: Vince McMahon has justsold out the art form - the profession itself - strictly for ratings and toline his own pockets.

FM: How do you feel about the WWF's decision to incorporate the finish of your match with Shawn Michaels at The Survivor Series into the programme between Steve Austin and Vince McMahon?

BH: I think it's kinda sad. But I guess it was inevitable. Wrestling has always tried to blend fantasy with reality in such a way that you can't tell what is and isn't real. But I will say this much: what they'vebeen doing with Austin is strictly story line. What they did with me ... I worked for (the WWF) for 14 years. I missed two shows in 14 years. AndI think that if you go back and watch my matches, you'll see that I wasthe guy who always gave 100 percent. I was the guy that always went that extra yard. To see what they did to me at The Survivor Series, to have them ring the bell on me, just to humiliate me in Canada and around the world.Then to have Jim Ross say that my career started in 1975, or something like that when the match started ... To do the thing a few days later with the midget. They were so vicious ... so uncaring. You know, I shake my headall the time: it's such a thankless job. I was always there, whenever I was advertised. I wrestled when I was sick and injured; I never missed one title match in 14 years. But those things don't mean anything to (theWWF).

FM: Do you believe that Shawn Michaels was 'in on' the double-cross?

BH: I know he was in on it. I know all the guys who were.

FM: Care to name names?

BH: Jerry Brisco Jim Ross, Pat Patterson ... Vince McMahon, since itwas his idea. That' s why I punched him out. You know, he considered suing me for quite a while, but he couldn't do it because the whole story wouldcome out. He would have to testify as to what they did to me. And I know that he couldn't take the stand and testify as to what happened without hurting himself. Looking back, it was a very sad betrayal of somebody who gavehis word and went by their word for years and years. I had been warnedyears ago that Vince McMahon was a snake and should never be trusted. And you know it, but I assumed after everything that I'd done for the companythat when he said I could leave with my head up that I would be able toleave with my head up.

FM: Give us your thoughts on current WWF World champion Steve Austin.

BH: Steve Austin is, and always has been, a great wrestler. He's fresh, he's new, he's very good. But I do wonder about his injuries. I know he's got a bad back ... But I hope good things for Steve Austin. I don'thave anything bad to say about him. He always treated me fairly. We always had great matches. And he has a lot of respect for the profession itself,which is very important.

FM: Will Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan ever lock horns one on one, onpay-per-view?

BH: I don't know. That's something that will have to be considered ...very carefully.

FM: It would certainly make a lot of money.

BH: Yeah ... I guess it would.

FM: What's the difference between working for Vince McMahon and Eric Bischoff?

BH: There's a big difference: Eric Bischoff has integrity. And WCW treats its wrestlers like athletes in contrast to the WWF which treats its wrestlers like circus animals.

FM: Any last words?

BH: Even though I was only in England maybe once or twice a year (whenI was working for the WWF), at least I was there. And I miss that, I miss that a lot. And not just England, but Europe and the wholeinternational thing. I know I'm on television internationally, but I don't know ifI'll ever be back. I hope the fans in the UK remember what I tried toexemplify. I never did get a chance to say goodbye to them, or any of my fellow wrestlers or the people who work in the studio, the cameramen ...There's so many people who are involved in the WWF who weren't part of what happened to me that night in Montreal. I never got a chance to saygoodbye to them, or my fans. I never got to do a big farewell speech. I hope the fans can forgive that.

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